Talk:Blue Mage, Variant (5e Class)

Lancet at higher levels

To whomever created this class i took the liberty of giving the Lancet an improvement at level 10. feel free to delete it but i think it will round out the feature.Bannanameds (talk) 13:08, 11 January 2017 (MST)

So far, I think this is a fine addition. Mefuki (talk) 22:16, 10 July 2017 (MDT)

Reducing MP cost

There are several mentions of effects that could reduce or negate MP costs, but nothing that actually does (unless there's a feat or item that I haven't found). I think perhaps there should be some sort of class feature or spell that would do this. Perhaps a spell that lowers max MP by an amount, but makes an attack gained from Lancet free to cast? Or just a feature that lets you choose one (maybe two at higher levels) attacks to become free when used with Chain affinity, since it's supposed to be the Blue Mage's Multiattack. Alternatively, adding items/feats that do this (or similar things, like increasing max MP) would be a good way to incorporate this. If/when these are a thing, I'd recommend linking to them in the class.--Dorlon (talk) 01:26, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that was a bit of future proofing I did. I'm planning on making some items or equipment that grants more max MP or reduces MP cost. Mefuki (talk) 22:16, 10 July 2017 (MDT)

Multiattack

Blue Mages used to not be able to learn the Multiattack action from monsters because Chain Affinity was supposed to be their way of getting extra attacks. This was all well and good, but now Blue Mages have access to both, which raises several questions; 1) Can one use Chain Affinity to activate a Multiattack? For example, Blue mage attacks with a dagger, uses Chain Affinity to use an Erinyes' Multiattack to make three additional attacks. I would think not, because Multiattack is not a weapon attack. 2) Can one use Multiattack to activate Chain Affinity? Similarly to the above, I would assume not, because the Blue Mage is casting a spell, not using the attack action (which it isn't specified that the Blue Mage has to make the Attack action, but I assume this is the case. Either way, it should be clarified). 3) When using the Multiattack spell, does the Blue Mage have to set it (I assume yes)? Does it give the passive benefit of being able to make the exact attacks listed, for example two claws and a bite, or does it just allow the number of attacks, in the previous example it would be three total attacks? If it's passive, do the attacks made with it each cost 1 MP? Can the Blue Mage make normal weapon attacks with it without spending MP? Is it an active ability that lets the Blue Mage make however many attacks for only 1 MP?

Personally, I find that allowing Blue Mages to learn Multiattack is too much, but perhaps if it is detailed properly, it can be a nice addition that doesn't break the class.--Dorlon (talk) 05:59, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Right you are. Someone had gone in twice and changed it to "Blue mage can learn the multiattack action". I changed it back both times. Multiattack is overly complicated, as you noted, and has a lot of potential for abuse. For example, if blue mage could set multiattack, he could potentially have 2 extra attacks at level 3~, etc. That said, I didn't want to forbid multiattacks in their entirety so I took Chain Affinity from FFXI and converted it into a class feature that would function as a kind of extra attack. It's an extra attack that is learned a level later than the fighter, costs a resource (MP), takes a bonus action and only has two tiers vs. the fighter's three. This gives Blue Mage the flexibility that is so paramount for it while not necessarily performing better than the fighter in straight melee DPS. Mefuki (talk) 22:16, 10 July 2017 (MDT)

Spells

A lot of the spells seem incomplete or half thought out. For example, Poison Breath grants Envenom, which deals 1d6 per turn for the duration. That seems reasonable, except there is no given duration. Mending Pollen is just a mess, as if the one writing it couldn't decide if it heals you or an ally, or if it targets an enemy to heal you. The rest of it seems reasonable, so I might try to fix that section if I have time.

I agree, but haven't touched it because I don't really have the time to try to figure out how to fix/balance things. I'm glad someone is, and I hope you're better equipped than I for the task. As for the Mending Pollen thing, I was thinking maybe it's a self heal, unless used with Providence, in which case it affects a 5ft radius around (and including) you?--Dorlon (talk) 01:20, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I think I fixed the worst of the spells. The debuffs that affect a stat last 5 rounds, and poison lasts a minute, but there is a con save at the beginning of each turn which can end it early. I also changed the damage to one that exists in 5e, and instead of aligned to an element, it deals double damage if they have resistance or immunity to the previously aligned type.

Actually, I spent a lot of time making and wording these spells and comparing them with other spells. In the Miscellaneous Rules for Blue Magic section, I currently have, "Status conditions inflicted by blue magic last for one round per each blue mage level. A creature may repeat the saving throw for status conditions that were the result of blue magic once that status condition's duration has lasted X rounds where X is the blue mage's level/2, ending the effect on itself on a success." This was a general rule I applied to blue magic to circumvent abusing things like permanent petrification while still making status effects worth applying. I'm thinking about changing this so saves can begin immediately but I don't want to underpower the status effects and I haven't encountered a problem following this rule in the campaigns I've used Blue Mage in. Also, I need to edit the status duration entry to specify that the saves happen at the end of each of an affected creature's turn.

As for Mending Pollen, I don't see the point of the redundancy in the edit that was made. It's a self target spell, unless used with Providence, in which case it affects a 5ft burst around you. It affects all creatures in the burst. It's intentionally worded to say, "...+ the target's Nature skill" because that's exactly what it does. Would you rather it say, "+ the affected creature's Nature skill"? I'm afraid I don't see the problem with the way it was worded.

Lastly, this Blue Mage is a conversion from Final Fantasy and the campaigns I'm currently in have water, earth and wind as damage types. I intentionally wrote in new damage types but I'm also trying to phrase things in a way that spells and such can be used without too much modification, such as referring to "earth" damage but also giving "magical bludgeoning" damage as an option for players you'd prefer to use traditional damage types. With that in mind, I can make a concession. I'm going to be reverting the spells and the "double damage" rule back to how I intended it. But I can add the "double damage" rule you thought of as well.

I'm regularly play testing this class. Tweaks and changes will come as I find balance issues.--Mefuki (talk) 02:47, 25 June 2017 (MDT)

Oh, the ol' "absorbing a monster's power" thing.

So this blindly gives any monster power to a PCs, they can't not get a power, the power lasts indefinitely and they stack?! I must be missing something?

What does "Blue mages cannot learn anything from any target in this way that does not intend to cause the blue mage mortal harm." mean?

I can "end the combat" by merely using the bonus action to use lancet then immediately fleeing, then going into the encounter again. so I can rapidly build up lots of powers?

Can I, during some downtime, absorb all the features and spells of my fellow adventurers by repeatedly starting a combat encounter with them and ending it? Marasmusine (talk) 16:04, 28 June 2017 (MDT)

Now I'm reading through "spellcasting" and it demonstrates why "absorb monster power" doesn't work - you have to have a long list of exceptions that can't possibly account for everything. Marasmusine (talk) 16:07, 28 June 2017 (MDT)

Okay, are the "set spells max" related to things you absorb from creatures?

Oh my word. The spells. I have no idea what's going on now. Don't they have spell levels? "magical bludgeoning (or water) damage"? There aren't any spell slots? Do they use up MP? What happens when you multiclass? Marasmusine (talk) 16:14, 28 June 2017 (MDT)

Ok, let's try to answer these questions:

Set spells max and power stacking.

Blue Mage can learn a very large array of abilities, spells and passives but are limited by the amount they can have "equipped" or set at one time. Under the Spellcasting, Setting Spells heading "The blue mage table shows how many spells can be set at one time. To cast a known spell, it must be set beforehand. You can change your list of set spells after a short rest." So, while Blue Mage starts with 13 settable "spells", 11 action/bonus action spells and 2 features, and can learn many more, you can only set 6 of these at a time at level 1. In addition, "Setting a feature that has a positive effect lowers max MP by 1. Setting a feature that has a negative effect, like anti-magic susceptibility, increases max MP by 1. Setting a resistance, like to piercing damage or the stunned condition, lowers max MP by 2. Setting an immunity, like to fire damage or to the paralyzed condition, lowers max MP by 3." This was to act as a balance and it makes for an interesting choice before battles. Do you stack features but be unable to do anything but swing your sword because you've reduced your MP to 0? Or do you forgo setting features to give yourself more flexibility in spellcasting?

Learning spells from allies.

This is why the rule, "Blue mages cannot learn anything from any target in this way that does not intend to cause the blue mage mortal harm.", was instituted. This means that the creature the Blue Mage is learning from must want the Blue Mage dead and is fighting to kill him. I intend to have the Blue Mage and his party kill the target of Lancet, thus ending the combat encounter. It appears this was unclear, as all the campaigns I've tested the Blue Mage in, didn't involve fleeing from monsters. I'll change the wording to something more like, "...at the end of the encounter if the encounter ended with the death of the target of Lancet."

Miscellaneous Rules For Blue Magic.

I've gone over the Monster Manuel, Volo's Guide to Monsters and part of the fan-made Critter Compendium to pick out any strangeness that might occur from learning certain features or actions. The list might not by quite exhaustive yet but I think it would answer the majority of questions someone would have about certain features and actions. I'm also thinking about formatting the list based on what the rule is referencing for easier reading (e.g. putting feature rules together, action rules together, etc.)

"Don't they have spell levels? There aren't any spell slots?"

No, "Blue Mage cannot cast any spell from a higher spell slot as it does not have any. All spells are grouped in one pool and can be set at any level, so long as the max MP reduction for setting features, resistances, and immunities does not reduce max MP below 0." Furthermore, "Spells learned from a creature's spell list, excluding cantrips, have the (Recharge 5-6) keyword." This was to preserve the versatility of Blue Mage while not out shining the other mage classes.

"Do they use up MP?"

Yes, "All magic and monster actions used by the blue mage are considered blue magic." and "All blue magic, aside from the aforementioned cantrips, that would take an action or bonus action to perform, consume 1 MP. Features that require an action or bonus action to activate also consume 1 MP."

"magical bludgeoning (or water) damage"?

This Blue Mage is a conversion from Final Fantasy (XI mostly) and the campaigns I'm currently in have water, earth and wind as damage types. I intentionally wrote in new damage types but I'm also trying to phrase things in a way where spells and such can be used without too much modification, such as referring to "earth" damage but also giving "magical bludgeoning" damage as an option for players you'd prefer to use traditional damage types. I assume this is not a problem considering this is a homebrewed class.

"What happens when you multiclass?"

This is the only part of Blue Mage I haven't really thought about since, again, no one multiclasses in the groups I've tested Blue Mage in. I imagine you'd add together the total number of levels you took in Blue Mage and that would give you your Max MP and the amount of spells you're allowed to set. E.g. You've taken 2 levels in Blue Mage which would give you 3 MP to cast spells with, 7 slots to fill with known Blue Mage spells and the class features: Lancet, Spellcasting and Bestial Knowledge.

I hope this answered all of your questions. Mefuki (talk) 00:02, 30 June 2017 (MDT)

Rewrite?

Someone has commissioned me to rewrite this. My aim is to make it fair, properly compatible with 5e, use the correct terminology; and to remove the vagueness and plug up the loopholes (the "intend to cause the blue mage mortal harm" clause does not cut it, it has no game definition).

I intend to make the changes here, but if that's a problem, I can start a new page. Marasmusine (talk) 03:01, 10 July 2017 (MDT)

Lancet

Looking at http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Lancet "lancet" seems to be mostly used by dragoons to absorb HP. Is this misnamed? Marasmusine (talk) 04:05, 10 July 2017 (MDT)

Oh wait, I see, it's from one character in FFX. But if I'm reading this correctly he has lancet because he's a ronso, not because he's a blue mage. He is mix of dragoon and blue mage class.

I believe classes should be broad rather than try to follow one specific video game character so try to make this more general. Marasmusine (talk) 04:47, 10 July 2017 (MDT)

Could move Lancet to an archetype. Marasmusine (talk) 06:29, 10 July 2017 (MDT)

Yes, if you could, please revert these changes and start a new page. The changes you introduced fundamentally turn Blue Mage into a different class than the way I designed it. Mefuki (talk) 09:32, 10 July 2017 (MDT)

Clearing Up The Stubs

"it's unclear how a blue mage's spells interact with dispel magic or spell immunity, as there are no spell levels."

There's already a rule for this, "For the purposes of effects like Counterspell or an Elder Brain's Break Concentration, all blue magic spells are cast at a spell level equal to half the level of the blue mage, rounded up, to a maximum of 9th level.". For example, at level 6, all of the blue mage's magic are considered "3rd level" spells even though they actually don't have levels. I didn't want blue mage to use spell slots or be able to cast from a higher spell slot. This was to maintain versatility while not stepping on the other mage's toes as much. I also realise this rule makes Blue Mage very much ill suited to deal with certain monsters at certain levels (eg. an Alhoon fighting a level 6 Blue Mage would be able to Counterspell every spell they could cast but I think that's just crippling enough, given the rarity of the situation. It's a situation where he's going to have to rely more on his sword and his allies or, if he has the features and the foreknowledge he's going into a fight with a creature that casts counterspell a lot, set many features in lieu of actions and spells).

"Allows access to monster features that have effects that might exceed the appropriate level of the PC; for example an Intellect Devourer's Devour Intellect and Body Thief"

Firstly, Devour Intellect. There's already a rule for status conditions: "Status conditions inflicted by blue magic last for one round per each blue mage level. A creature may repeat the saving throw at the end of it's turn, ending the effect on itself on a success." This would apply to Devour Intellect, regaining the lost intelligence after a successful save while still making it worth inflicting as the save happens at the end of that creature's turn rather than the beginning.

As for things like Body Thief, under Action Rules, the rule, "Actions that would destroy or permanently alter a creature's body for an extended period of time, like an Intellect Devourer's Body Thief, are temporary. The loss of a limb or organ is considered a status condition if inflicted by this type of blue magic. A creature may repeat the saving throw for status conditions that were the result of this type of blue magic once that status condition's duration has lasted X rounds where X is the blue mage's level/2, ending the effect on itself on a success. A creature who saves from this type of condition reverses the loss of limb or organ that was inflicted." has been instituted.

I didn't like the idea of Blue Mage getting to destroy brains and permanently zombify people and such with his magic (I'm not a big fan of it in general but...). However, I still wanted him to have access to as many actions, status conditions, etc, as possible. Many of these kinds of actions are harder to perform successfully, Body Thief requiring one incapacitated humanoid within range and having to win an intelligence contest. This rule makes it so conditions this serious are still meaningful and can't be saved for immediately (vis-à-vis standard blue mage status condition rules) but are also not permanent by any means. Mefuki (talk) 22:16, 10 July 2017 (MDT)

I think the definitions need improving then. The intelligence reduction of devour intellect doesn't have a definition of "alter a creature's body" or a "status condition" (although "stunned" is a condition).

Similarly, a wraith has "create spectre" and maybe you intended this to be caught with the "Creatures summoned" clause, but it isn't defined as a summoning. (Also not sure why it says "monstrous creature", does this just mean "creature"?)

5e heavily discourages "round counting" (I don't think there are any examples of this in the core books, it's literally been designed out of the system), so while "X rounds where X is the blue mage's level/2" doesn't break the game, it's not 5e.

I can gain types of movement that shouldn't be available until certain levels, such as "etherealness" and "incorporeal movement", I'm not sure if this is covered?

Do you have a clause that covers a ghost's possession action? Marasmusine (talk) 02:35, 16 July 2017 (MDT)

Perhaps there should be movement rules for MP cost. My first idea would be a fly speed costs 2 MP for every 30 feet of movement, but only 1 if it is hover. For incoppreal movement, I really don't see why that can't be a 1 MP ability. As for etherealness, maybe a rule where a monster ability mimics a spell, even if it isn't innate spellcasting, treat it as if it was the spell. With possession, I think that falls under the status condition rules. As for round counting, that might need a little work, I'll check other during spells.Draconm (talk) 11:00, 19 July 2017 (MDT)

Terminology

So, I was able to clear up all but one use of encounter, but that last one is hard. If I were to house rule it, I would make it three times per short rest, and a creature is immune for 24 hours after being targeted, but that is a big change that should be under discussion, rather than just do myself.

As for blast and burst, I think I know how to change that, but running it through the talk page first. For Convergence, make it:

For this spell's duration, the next spell cast that is a cube, cone, sphere or line, instead, targets one creature. The spell reads "target" instead of "targets", “creature” instead of “creatures”, etc, and effect only that creature and the terrain directly beneath it.

And for Providence:

For this spell's duration, the next spell that targets a single creature instead is a 5 foot sphere or cone; if the spell is a sphere, the range remains the same. The spell reads "targets" instead of "target", “creatures” instead of “creature”, etc, and the radius effects all in the area of effect.

I have no idea how to fix lowest stat phrasing. --Draconm (talk) 10:57, 21 July 2017 (MDT)

Yeah, I like that. That sounds good. I'll put it in. I don't think "lowest stat" needs adjusting, as there doesn't seem to be an "official" term for it in the core rulebook. This is a homebrew, after all: there's going to be some unique concepts. Thank you for talking this to the talk page first. --Mefuki (talk) 10:38, 28 August 2017 (MDT)